Essa Abdool-Karim | Emerging Companies Lawyer | Medtech Legal Considerations, Optimism, & An Abundance Mindset

Essa Abdool-Karim, an emerging companies lawyer specializing in medical technology, shares his intriguing journey from sports and entertainment law to finance law, before finding his passion in MedTech legal affairs. He discusses the vital role of contracts, liability considerations, and the complexities of navigating regulatory landscapes, especially when expanding into international markets. Essa offers invaluable insights into the importance of strategic investor relationships and the distinction between "smart money" and "dumb money." His optimistic outlook and dedication to facilitating breakthroughs in MedTech make this a must-listen for aspiring and established entrepreneurs. Guest links: https://www.linkedin.com/in/essa-abdool-karim/

Charity supported: Sleep in Heavenly Peace

Interested in being a guest on the show or have feedback to share? Email us at podcast@velentium.com.

PRODUCTION CREDITS Host: Lindsey Dinneen Editing: Marketing Wise Producer: Velentium

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Episode 028 - Essa Abdool-Karim

[00:00:00] Lindsey Dinneen: Hi, I'm Lindsey and I'm talking with MedTech industry leaders on how they change lives for a better world.

[00:00:09] Diane Bouis: The inventions and technologies are fascinating and so are the people who work with them.

[00:00:15] Frank Jaskulke: There was a period of time where I realized, fundamentally, my job was to go hang out with really smart people that are saving lives and then do work that would help them save more lives.

[00:00:28] Diane Bouis: I got into the business to save lives and it is incredibly motivating to work with people who are in that same business, saving or improving lives.

[00:00:38] Duane Mancini: What better industry than where I get to wake up every day and just save people's lives.

[00:00:42] Lindsey Dinneen: These are extraordinary people doing extraordinary work, and this is The Leading Difference.

[00:00:50] Hello, and welcome back to another episode of The Leading Difference podcast. I'm your host Lindsey and I am so excited to introduce my guest today, Essa Abdool-Karim. Essa is an emerging companies lawyer who helps his clients build their businesses. This can be through raising capital, producing the correct contracts or structures, navigating regulatory hurdles, or purchasing new businesses that will either expand or open a new market for their current businesses.

[00:01:17] Essa, welcome to the show and thank you so much for being here.

[00:01:21] Essa Abdool-Karim: Thank you for having me.

[00:01:23] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. I'd love if you wouldn't mind starting off by telling us a little bit about yourself and your background.

[00:01:30] Essa Abdool-Karim: Yeah. So a little bit about myself. I am an emerging company's lawyer, some would say a venture capital lawyer as well. I, I have sort of like a general practice, but my emphasis are in several technology companies, but I have a special interest in medical technology companies, representing them from their early sort of incubation stages all the way up into hopefully one day, some IPO or other form of exit. And a lot of my practice is helping sort of build that out and almost acting as fractional general counsel to a lot of the activities that they do.

[00:02:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Excellent. And then would you mind telling us a little bit about your background, maybe how you got into this field and specialty in the first place?

[00:02:11] Essa Abdool-Karim: Yeah, my journey is quite interesting actually. It is not, it's not a straight line by any means, right? So, I actually started as a, so after I finished law school, I went and worked for sports and entertainment law firm where I was representing athletes, entertainers, at sort of international tribunals and contracts sort of negotiations, mediations. There was contract drafting as well. So it was really cool. It was a lot of fun and I don't know what possessed me to say, "Hey, I want to go leave this and go to the exciting world of finance."

[00:02:41] So I ended up in the the finance industry. I worked for an broker dealer in Montreal. So I did sort of a quasi-legal role there. But at some point I just missed private practice. So I left, ended up starting my own shop and then joining up with the firm I'm currently with. And yeah, so as I was developing my practice, I realized that I loved working with startup companies and growth companies or companies in a growth stage. I found it to be very exciting.

[00:03:11] How the medical technology thing sort of happened. It sort of lined up with my interest and I had one client that sort of reached out to me that was sort of a larger, they had a more established medical technology company than they all also had an early stage medical technology company. They had a couple. And it sort of through that, I really sort of delved into the world of medical technology and all of the legal issues that these companies typically face, both in local markets and international markets. Prior to that, however, I've always been interested in the space. I just didn't know exactly what the space was or meant. Right? So yeah, that's that's a bit of background about me and sort of how I ended up where I'm now.

[00:03:51] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. And so out of curiosity, did you growing up think, "oh my goodness. One day I'm gonna be a lawyer?" Like, was this always a goal and interest of yours or has that evolved over time?

[00:04:03] Essa Abdool-Karim: Yeah, weird. It's kind of weird how that happened. Law has always been sort of something of interest to me and from a very young age. And it is something that I've often entertained. I did wanna do something a little bit different, but it was like, "oh, it would be nice to be like a marine biologist. What do they do? It'd be nice to be an astronomer, but I do just look at the stars all day?" I'm not sure, right, what that sort of entails. So I was like, "okay, I understand what lawyers do, I think for the most part. So I'll just do that". So, yeah, how that happened.

[00:04:32] Lindsey Dinneen: Okay, . Okay. So, so first was just sort of, okay, I have an idea of what you do, but then, I mean, that's a huge commitment in terms of education and time and all sorts of things. So, how has becoming a lawyer and then going from sort of industry to industry, how has that been a compelling thing in your life in terms of career trajectory as you've gone from one industry to another?

[00:05:00] Essa Abdool-Karim: Yeah, Yeah, Yeah it's been interesting. I kind of like it personally just because when I first started, and even a little bit right now, I'm sort of industry agnostic. I wouldn't have been where I am today, if not for the journey that I've had. I kind of done everything that I wanted to do. Like prior to law school, I taught, I was a teacher because it was always like, maybe I should become a teacher. Then I went to law school, wanted to work in sports entertainment. I think every entry class has about 30% of the students want to enter into that. I was very fortunate that I ended up in there. So, and then I went, I've always wanted to try the world of finance. I tried that, got to see what that was about. It was interesting. Not interesting enough for me to stay, but interesting, so.

[00:05:43] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure.

[00:05:43] Essa Abdool-Karim: So it was, it's good. It's been a very good journey in that regard. And I'm just happy that I ended up dealing with medical technology as one of my major verticals. So that's been, it's been really cool and I've been very fortuitous to have that experience, and it's exciting. I enjoy the pace of it.

[00:06:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, for sure. So with medical device companies in particular, I imagine that each industry, and of course each company has different focus points in terms of legal considerations, but MedTech is a very heavily regulated industry, so what are some of the top considerations that you help-- especially very young startups, maybe it's their very first invention or product-- what are some of the considerations that you always help them to think through from a legal perspective?

[00:06:35] Essa Abdool-Karim: It's a loaded question and I don't wanna, don't wanna. No, it's a very loaded question. It's a good question though. I don't wanna give you the lawyerly answer and say it depends but in, in a way it does, but I think the essentials are, there's, there's a few.

[00:06:50] So, you know, contracts are very important. Obviously having the right contracts in place is, there's a very good starting point, especially with your founders. You, everyone sort of starts your relationship thinking, oh, this is sort of like a "kumbaya kind a moment. We're all gonna be fine. Everything's gonna work out." But the reality is, you know, I'm not paid to think about the kumbaya moments. I'm paid to think about, you know, what's the worst that can possibly happen and how do we account for that, unfortunately, right? So that's one thing that's very important. Understanding where everyone's responsibilities are, outlining that in a document is a very good starting point.

[00:07:22] The other critical starting point I would say is liability, particularly in the medical technology industry. It's a highly regulated industry. There's a lot of money flowing around, and with that, there's a ton of risk. So, as an example for Canadian companies they will be receiving any sort of regulatory approvals that you need to receive from the relevant Canadian authorities. And once you obtain that, you have it, you're in the market, but more often than not, you're looking to expand to the United States, as an example.

[00:07:54] Now there are a number of considerations when you're having to do that. There's obviously FDA regulations that you have to worry about, certain sort of disclosures that are required to be made. And this isn't even going into the intellectual property element of patents and other sort of important intellectual property issues. But just both focusing right now on the corporate side. When, and I'll speak from a Canadian perspective and I'll transition into the US, but when a Canadian looks at the US the, they're, the biggest thing they're afraid of is getting sued and understandably so. The United States is the most litigious society on earth in the entire world. I think I saw a statistic where it said there's a lawsuit literally every second. And.

[00:08:38] Lindsey Dinneen: Oh my word.

[00:08:39] Essa Abdool-Karim: Yeah, so it's understandable. There's a high risk, high reward because the United States is such a large market, and there's so much promise here, people want to enter into it, but they wanna be very careful when entering into it. And I typically advise them the relevant corporate structure to enter in to this market for it. Now there's a distinction, right? There's the early stage elements where we're dealing with startups, making sure the contract correct contracts are in place. There is a basic corporate structure in place. And you're working towards some sort of intellectual property ownership because that's critically important, particularly in this field, although I'm not an intellectual property lawyer.

[00:09:17] I do, I shouldn't say-- I'm not a patent lawyer. I do some intellectual property work. I'm not a patent lawyer specifically. You know, I'm familiarized with trademarks, copyrights, but patents that are very sort of technical area of law. But it's critically important to have your eye on the prize and want to work towards that. So I do liaise with patent agents, patent attorneys and other relevant legal minds. So that's all part of the process.

[00:09:45] I think building your vision very early, understanding how you want to get there and where you want to go is all critical and part of the process. In my experience, patents take a very long time relatively to secure, but I think that's the end goal. And even with that, there's time limit after you obtain it to, to file for it in other countries. So it becomes a global thing as well. But yeah, so at the early stage you wanna work primarily on the structuring, get the right team together, make sure that everyone has the right documents in place. Could be employment agreements, could be independent contractor agreements.

[00:10:15] It depends on how you wanna structure your company, how much appetite you have for it, what's your relationship with the employees or independent contracts ought to be. anD even the boring stuff like share classes, understanding how those work. And then there's raising money, and that's a big one because everybody needs money to operate their company, and to get it off the ground. So those are some of the early stage considerations. When you're sort of like at a growth stage, what you're looking at is market entry, how to enter into foreign markets, which obviously I help my clients with as well.

[00:10:48] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, so lots of considerations. So we can just barely scratch the surface, and folks should hire you if they need additional supports.

[00:10:56] Essa Abdool-Karim: For sure.

[00:10:58] Lindsey Dinneen: You know, it's so interesting. Thank you for sharing some of those considerations and bringing to light some things that you might not think of initially, especially like you mentioned, it, it does feel very exciting when you start a company and you have all of these like celebratory moments, 'cause everything is exciting and a big deal. And then like you said, but you have to think it is your job to think about what could go wrong though, and then prepare for that. So I am curious though, that sparked a question for you personally in your own life, how are you able to separate or negotiate the fact that a lot of what you need to do is look for worst case scenario, when probably you wouldn't wanna do that in your personal life all of the time. So I'm curious how that works where it's like your work is so heavily focused on being proactive in a preventive way, however, at the same time, for you personally, how do you balance that?

[00:12:00] Essa Abdool-Karim: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. It's a good question too because we have... listen, I'll be honest with you, lawyers are pessimistic by nature, right? I think generally speaking, we just think of the worst case scenario. I'm not like that personally. I'm an optimist. I'm a cautious optimist, a realistic optimist, whatever you wanna call it, right? My philosophy is always hope for the best, but prepare for the worst. I think it's critically important to do that. I do that in my personal life. I do it in my professional life. And just because you're thinking of the worst case scenario, it doesn't mean it's gonna happen, right? You just have to calculate for it. My job is to make sure we don't get to that point, right? But you have to account for it nonetheless.

[00:12:39] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So, so you are able to keep the perspective of we're doing this as a, as something to be prepared for as a preventative and not get to that point, so therefore it can be a little bit more optimistic and a little less...

[00:12:54] Essa Abdool-Karim: Yeah, and it's so difficult. It's so difficult too, to be honest with you, just because so much of my job is, you know, thinking about that stuff,

[00:13:04] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:13:04] Essa Abdool-Karim: It's very easy to get down on yourself outside of work. So you need to be really good at sort of detaching. And I have a good support system in place. I think that's very important. I didn't marry a lawyer. I know a lot of people that do, like lawyers marry other lawyers. So I think the fact that I'm not married to one probably helps.

[00:13:21] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:13:23] Essa Abdool-Karim: I know me if I was married to one, we just bought talk shop when I got home. So, and I know a lot of lawyers that are married to other lawyers and it works for them. I think they probably make it a point to probably detach and they probably understand each other in, in that sort of capacity. But I'm married to an accountant, so very different world and I think is beneficial for me.

[00:13:45] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. . Yeah. So with the medtech industry specifically-- when you do get to work with those clients, what are some of the things that stand out to you as being particularly noteworthy or enjoyable? What in particular do you like about this industry?

[00:14:04] Essa Abdool-Karim: Oh, I love how brilliant everyone is. Everyone is so smart, so much smarter than I am. Like it's It's amazing.

[00:14:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah,

[00:14:12] Essa Abdool-Karim: It's

[00:14:12] Lindsey Dinneen: I get that.

[00:14:13] Essa Abdool-Karim: It's really cool. It, there's so many smart people in this industry. Watching, not only watching, but also being in that room with people who are trying to solve a problem makes such a massive difference because I feel it pulls myself up as well. I really have to be on my A game. And because of that, it's just so enjoyable working with them. So yeah, definitely. It's definitely the intelligence. That's one thing.

[00:14:37] Another sort of element is-- and I went to law school with this intention-- I always wanted to be able to provide for my family, but I always wanted to do good. I wanted to be able to sleep at night and knowing that I was doing good. And, when I'm servicing medical technology companies, I know, yeah, obviously you have to care about the bottom line. That's, that's part of the business side of it. But a lot of the founders I met their intentions aren't just the bottom line.

[00:14:59] Their intentions are, we wanna change the world for better and we want to make the world a better place. We want to make it easier for, for everyone who's going through this particular difficulty and we want to make their life easier. And I think that's remarkable. So one of the greatest pleasures I have is I'm trying to help 'em achieve that goal and I'm trying to help them realize that success and that is really cool for me.

[00:15:22] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think those two things are-- I agree with both of them. I really enjoy both those elements. I also really like-- I don't know what your experience has been-- but one thing that I very much enjoy about the industry is how friendly people tend to be, and they tend to be just very welcoming. And us about you, tell us, you know, it is, it's just a very inclusive place for the most part. And I hope it will continue down that pathway because

[00:15:47] Essa Abdool-Karim: I think, yeah, I for sure. I think the people I've met are very receptive, and that's, and I think that's really cool. Typically, and I'll be honest with you, in some industries there's almost, I wanna call it a fraternity, where they try to keep people out. But I haven't found that in the medical technology industry. I found that people are very receptive, very open, and I think the worldview actually is a little bit different from other industries in that sense. There's very human side to this that I think everyone appreciates. And I think that's really cool.

[00:16:18] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And so, are there any moments along your lawyerly journey where you had this realization, maybe you were helping a client, or it could really could be anything, where you just had this thought of, wow, this is why I do what I do.

[00:16:38] Essa Abdool-Karim: Yeah, that's a very good question. There's a really basic one I had recently a couple of months ago. So I drafted up an independent contractor agreement for a client and things didn't work out. Independent contractor got upset. They parted ways. Independent contractor comes back threatening to sue. Client goes, "Hey, look at the contracts. You can't do that." And I was like, "yeah I drafted that. So this is what I do. Okay, cool. So there's purpose to my job and the work I do." So that was, so that was good. That was a full circle moment. That was really cool.

[00:17:16] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, exactly. Seeing it in real time, the protections that you've put in place, actually helping your clients, which of course you want them to, but if they're not tested... there you go.

[00:17:27] Essa Abdool-Karim: For sure. And when, and one of the other, one of the other things I think that was really cool recently was one of my clients launched in in another jurisdiction. And I helped set that up and knowing that, and I've seen testimonies about the product and the treatments that the clients were receiving, and to be a part of that is really something special.

[00:17:44] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Yes. Absolutely agree. Absolutely. Yeah. And so, coming down the line, what are some of your things that you're looking forward to with with your firm, with your clients, or, you know, continuing to expand? What are some things to look forward to?

[00:18:00] Essa Abdool-Karim: Yeah, it's it's an exciting time for me just because I'm expanding my, my practice a little bit in the sense that I'm really digging into sort of medical technology community, even to an extent the health tech community. So it's exciting for me because I'm moving in that direction. And I'm really doubling down on helping my clients open up their companies into international markets. So that's been really exciting. We do quite a bit of work in the Middle East, for example. But I. The United States for a lot of people is a big, a big market. So expansion here is very important, and even for US clients, expanding outwards is still really good for simply diversifying your portfolio. And there's many companies that do this.

[00:18:40] The Canadian market is really good for that as well because we do have a robust economy. We do have a good set of regulations in place. Market entry is a little bit difficult because of the regulations, but we have a very sophisticated consumer market and a very good infrastructure, which is the appeal of Canada, which is something I didn't realize until earlier this year, I, in my mind it was, why come to Canada when you can go to the US, right? And it still very much is the case. And if you just look at the consumer market, ours is smaller naturally. The US has, I think, the second largest consumer market in the world behind China. So, makes sense why companies would wanna open up in the US over Canada. But for us, companies that are already established here, I think it's a very good move for them to establish themselves in Canada, just because there is a very sophisticated user base and consumer base for the products that you would launch there.

[00:19:30] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, so continuing to expand even more into helping those clients as they look towards more global reach essentially. And yeah, continuing to build up that medtech portfolio. That sounds good.

[00:19:44] Essa Abdool-Karim: Yeah. Yeah. And it's a lot of fun, again, just because of the people you meet. Super, super exciting. I mean, there's been. There's been there's so many anecdotal stories. There's a saying amongst lawyers, we'll do everything for you. Just give us the book rights, right? Waive-- your story is so phenomenal-- just waive your book rights, so when, you know, at the end of my career, I can put it in my book and tell people about it, sort of thing, right? Because we do a lot of that and...

[00:20:08] Lindsey Dinneen: Right.

[00:20:09] Essa Abdool-Karim: Some of the stories we see are truly sort of remarkable. And a lot what we do, it's kind of sad, but funny at the same time because like my, one of my mentors says, and one of the principal lawyers in my firm, he says, "Listen, they're either gonna get us on the way in or the way out. You know, one way or another, you're gonna need us. Either when you're starting the company, you're gonna hire us or you're gonna make a mistake down the line and you're gonna need us down the line." And unfortunately, I've seen the latter situation where down the line things have gotten really bad. And have you had just spent a little money upfront, this wouldn't have cost you a million dollars later on. And that has, and it has happened. I've seen it happen firsthand and it's super unfortunate.

[00:20:47] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, so in general, I it, I'm not putting words into your mouth, but it sounds like one of the first things if you establish your own company is to consult with a lawyer.

[00:20:57] Essa Abdool-Karim: I think so. I think I, I think as far as... and obviously I have my bias here, but you know...

[00:21:03] Lindsey Dinneen: Sure.

[00:21:03] Essa Abdool-Karim: Again, I've seen, I've, I've seen companies, that started barely anything, right? And they built into this thing that they never thought they'd be, like this massive company. And not to say that they never wanted to reach that point, or they never wanted to get to that point, but it grew into something that they never thought, even dreamed possible, right, in a very good way. The problems, the foundational documents and the relationships they had with maybe vendors or licensees, weren't the best in nature. And then I have to come in and I'm doing crisis management at this point. I'm either managing their litigation or if I'm not managing their litigation, I'm trying to diffuse the situation so it doesn't get worse, could be through mediations and out of court discussions, right? Even though I'm not a litigator, I do this sort of litigation management. All that to say in long-winded way of answering your question is, yes, please consult a lawyer as early as you possibly can, as early as you can afford it.

[00:22:00] You want to be able to resolve issues before they get to court, generally, right? When you're not the offensive side, but even when you are suing, right? Because obviously if you have a patent interest in something or someone's infringing on your patents or you know, maybe there's a commercial disagreement. Even if you are the party suing, you have to be very careful when going to court. And the reason for that is you cannot tell who the judge is gonna be and how they're gonna view things. It's always, you always throw the ball up in the air.

[00:22:29] You know, even we as lawyers, we can do as much case law research as we want. We can look at the legislation as hard as we want. We can really scrutinize it. We can go into the wording, we can make our arguments, but we cannot guarantee that things will end up in your favor even if you have a really strong case. Because when you go into court, anything can happen. From witnesses to, to, to the judge's opinion, maybe their own personal experience in something, you don't know. So even in that situation, it often is better to settle outside of court or have some sort of discussion. But yeah, it's it's an important sort of strategy to note that dispute resolution is a critical part of any legitimate litigation strategy, in my view, at least.

[00:23:14] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I absolutely see the value, of course, in that. And then, and like you said if you end up sort of inviting in non-controllable human elements into the mix, if you do end up.... yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. All right.

[00:23:32] Essa Abdool-Karim: it's not I think. I think if a lawyer tells you, "This is a slam dunk," you should be very cautious. Yes. I think that's a big, I don't like, maybe it's a red flag. It's definitely like an orange flag. Not even a yellow. It's like an orange flag, right? So you definitely wanna watch out for that because a lawyer's telling you, "oh, this is a slam dunk. This is not a problem." I like, okay, are like, "are you a psychic? Do you know the judge person?" Like, you know what-- there's a lot of things that can go wrong.

[00:24:01] And by the way, it's all very expensive to go to court. It is very expensive. And this bothers me 'cause even lawyers are expensive, right? I know this. It's unfortunate because access justice is something very important to me. But the problem is there's a big paywall behind it. So, and it's one of the things a lot of early stage companies struggle with. So how can you get legitimate and valid legal advice when you can't afford it?

[00:24:23] So there's actually two ways I have in my mind and I guess I share with you right now. And perhaps your listeners will find value in it. One of them is obviously to join some sort of incubator or accelerator. Those are always good, because the network you can build in them. Even, so one of the other thing is, and perhaps if you'd like, we can talk about investing right after this, you'd be able to connect with, you know, could be venture capitalists, could be angels, but what's important, you open up sort of a new network for yourself in a myriad of different ways. So that's the first element.

[00:24:55] The second element, and I posted on this on LinkedIn a couple months ago. It's, you can have an advisor committee where you give maybe one or 2% of your equity or whatever the advisor wants. But you can bring a lawyer onto that advisor committee for equity. That way you're not actually paying liquidable cash for that advice, but you're actually bringing them in to advise you on how to set things up while giving maybe one or 2% of your company away, which maybe a lot, maybe a little, depending on how valuable the lawyer is, but it's a good way to save upfront cost.

[00:25:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Those are great suggestions. Thank you for that. That's great advice. And then you mentioned the investing side. Do you wanna talk a little bit more about that too?

[00:25:35] Essa Abdool-Karim: Yeah, absolutely. So financing is a difficult thing, right? Because you're very sort of, subservient to the markets in a sense, right? And we're in a little bit of a down market right now, but people are still raising capital. I know people are, that completed about a $50, $60 million raise like about four or five months ago. So, I mean, money is still being moved.

[00:25:53] But the sort of important thing here is, and I cannot emphasize this enough, there is an important distinction between smart money and dumb money. And what I mean by that is, it's sounds crazy, but anyone can go out and get money. I, you know, you can go and you get in front of the right person and they'll just give you, they'll write a check for a 300,000, $400,000, whatever, right? The problem is you don't want to just take cash. I mean, you can. But it's not gonna open up a network if that person doesn't have the network that you need.

[00:26:24] The smarter way to go about it is to make sure to get it, bring in an investor that can actually open up a network for you, because at some point they might want a board seat and those shouldn't be given away just to anyone. It has to be very strategic. And one of the important things I find is that if you have a very good investor, someone who actually has a market behind them. And since we're talking about the medical technology space, we want someone in that invests into medical technology companies that understands the vertical. Because when they come in they likely already have an ecosystem that you can use.

[00:26:57] They might, I don't wanna say have a relationship with the regulators, but they might be familiar with the regulators and maybe familiar with certain professionals that they can introduce you to. They may have in their own portfolio connections to distributors. That could be huge, that could be more valuable than the million dollars they just gave you because it might open up a $10 million market for you, just by virtue of the fact that you got introduced to distributor because of this person's reputation. So you have to scrutinize your investors as much as they scrutinize you.

[00:27:24] And I know that's difficult sometimes because obviously there's a huge power dynamic between early stage companies, even growth companies, growth stage companies, and an investor when you're literally might be on fumes and your runway is at its the very end, maybe like a month or two away from giving out. So it's very difficult to sort of stand there and tell them like, "look, you need to open this and this door for me, you to bring me in." Very difficult to put yourself in that position, but that's the position you ideally wanna be in. Connect with someone who can open, open market for you. And I think that's one of the most important things about bringing investors in,

[00:28:01] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes. Thank you. That's really great advice and that's the first time I've heard that particular advice, so I really appreciate you sharing that.

[00:28:08] Essa Abdool-Karim: You are welcome.

[00:28:10] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, I think I, that brings a lot of value to when people are looking for those resources. And like you said, maybe the million dollars, I mean, it is cash, it's gonna be useful, but might not be, as you said in the long term, as impactful to your business as those relationships in this context can be. So something to really think about, and take seriously.

[00:28:31] Essa Abdool-Karim: It can be very difficult sometimes to remove those investors that have invested into the company that you don't want anymore. And they're just taking up a spot in your cap table...

[00:28:42] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:28:42] Essa Abdool-Karim: ...with not one really bringing anything. And that's very difficult. And this is one of those other issues, is if you don't have something in writing that allows for you to both parties to sort of set the step away amicably, they'll be stuck on there.

[00:28:57] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah.

[00:28:58] Essa Abdool-Karim: And that's happened and I've had sort of like these business divorces that I deal with, which is not fun, but it is sort of part of the game as well. But there are strategies you can employ at a high level without breaking any laws that will help remedy that. But again, situation by situation

[00:29:17] Lindsey Dinneen: Absolutely. So you have shared lots of great advice, but I would just say when I summarize it in my mind, one of the biggest things is talk to a lawyer early and often.

[00:29:28] Essa Abdool-Karim: Yeah.

[00:29:28] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, there you go. There you go. Amazing.

[00:29:34] Essa Abdool-Karim: Play the long game. You know, make a friend, be like, "Hey listen, you'd make a great lawyer one day" and just kind of push them to law school. Yeah, just push them into law school.

[00:29:43] Lindsey Dinneen: And maybe, maybe offer to contribute to the law school tuition a little, just you know.

[00:29:48] Essa Abdool-Karim: I just believe in you so much

[00:29:53] Lindsey Dinneen: That's amazing. I love it. Pivoting a little bit, just for fun. Imagine you were to be offered a million dollars to teach a masterclass on anything you want. It could be in your field, but it doesn't have to be at all. What would you choose to teach and why?

[00:30:10] Essa Abdool-Karim: I think I'd want to teach people how to motivate themselves. I have a background in coaching, coaching sports. So I've always found it and no matter what sort of industry I've been in, what position I've been in I find great value, in, in being able to motivate others. I think it's very important and I find great satisfaction in it. And it's really, it feels really good when you, when you see people becoming successful, perhaps not, I don't wanna say as a result of it, your advice, but partly as a result of your advice or your encouragement. So I would probably put together some sort of masterclass on how to get out of bed in the morning, how to set your goals, how to set your visions, and how to execute on those visions.

[00:30:54] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, that's a great masterclass and one that I'm sure a lot of people would sign up for, because it's so important. I recently actually listened to just a snippet-- I need to go back and listen to the whole thing-- but of a TED talk where the woman was talking about how we often treat confidence as a" nice to have" instead of a "must have." And what a difference it makes when you do treat it as a must have. And anyway, that I thought of that immediately when you were talking about the motivation and sometimes you need a coach to kind of come alongside you and help with that and say, "Yeah, no, you can do this. Let's figure out how we're gonna do this together."

[00:31:31] Essa Abdool-Karim: Yeah, Lindsey, it takes, honestly, it's, it can just be one person, just one person that says, I" believe you can do this." It makes an entire, huge difference. And I don't think some people maybe do realize this, others don't realize how big that can be.

[00:31:46] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. And I just kept thinking though, , is a very, that was a very good point and a serious one, but the first thought that popped into my mind was like, "Okay, who do I know that I can tell, ' Yes, I think you'd make an excellent lawyer.'" Oh man.

[00:32:03] Essa Abdool-Karim: You're always giving, Lindsey. It's really good. I like the way you....

[00:32:05] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. So giving.

[00:32:07] Essa Abdool-Karim: Helping propel everyone forward. It's really good.

[00:32:11] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Oh my word. Oh my goodness. Okay. Yeah. So how do you wish to be remembered after you leave this world?

[00:32:21] Essa Abdool-Karim: Yeah, it's a good question. You know, I deal with some incredible entrepreneurs that at this point in their careers, they're not even thinking about, you know, exits or companies. They're thinking about legacy and they want to be sort of remembered as luminaries and experts, not just experts in the field, but people who sort of change the world. So for myself, I do eventually want to get to the point where I can change the world. I don't know what that's gonna look like or how it's gonna happen, but I want some sort of positive lasting influence in the world that I played a part doing. Now interestingly mentioned like how do I want to be remembered? I don't necessarily have to be remembered for doing it. But I want to know to myself that I was a part of it.

[00:33:02] Lindsey Dinneen: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And then final question, what is something that makes you smile every time you see or think about it?

[00:33:15] Essa Abdool-Karim: My life. Just...

[00:33:19] Lindsey Dinneen: Yes!

[00:33:20] Essa Abdool-Karim: You know, retrospect really is 2020. And it's this crazy, life is just crazy thing, right? You know, we go through so many difficulties and everybody does. You just can't see it, right? We all go through these difficulties, these ups and downs, these mountains and valleys, these peaks and valleys, and no, not everybody sort